#110 -Sexuality and Islam with Dr. Drissa Kone
“Marriage is about growth and not just being happy together. We enter marriage as a process and we have to understand that growing is a part of it. And that growing is painful sometimes” - Dr. Drissa Kone
We have diverse perspectives on many topics, especially when it comes to sexuality and marriage. However, despite our differences, listening, learning, and most importantly respecting them can make a tremendous impact in this world, which is the definition of unification, to be as one despite our diversity.
In Islam, religion and the legal system are intertwined, and they are both in existence at all times. Islamic sexual jurisprudence focuses on the laws of sexuality that are mainly predicted in the Quran, as well as the Sunnah, wherein sex is seen as a gift from Allah and sexual relationships should be confined to marriage between a man and a woman only.
In Islam, social justice is a big deal, and they always make sure that society's order is maintained. In Islam, marriage is mandatory as it is seen as a significant help in the development and maintenance of a stable society.
In Episode 110, we are joined by Dr. Drissa Kone, an experienced professor of Conflict Resolution and Ministry, who has been named as the Director of the Unification Theological Seminary’s Doctor of Ministry.
Dr. Kone shares with us why the Quran is highly significant to Muslims and what it says about sexuality. He also discusses the important purpose of marriage in Islam as well as the true definition of what unification is.
Listen to Episode 110 to learn more!
Show Notes
Who wrote the Quran?
What is Sunnah?
What does the Quran say about marriage?
Why is marriage mandatory in Islam?
What does the Quran say about polygamy?
Sexuality from the Sunnah
Islam sees sex as an act of having children
What is Unification all about?
The true purpose of marriage
Why shouldn't we make decisions based on our emotions?
Episode Transcript:
Andrew Love
Welcome back to Love, Life and Legacy, everybody, the podcast to help you navigate these hypersexualized times. And in today's episode, I'm interviewing an old friend of mine. Somebody that I met back when I lived in New York. His wife was Mongolian. Before I had met my wife or knew anything about Mongolia, I met him and his wife, and they just had one little baby at that time. That little baby is now so huge because Conor is so huge. His name is Dr. Drissa Kone. And he is from the Ivory Coast. He grew up there. And he came to America, he came to New York. And he's now a doctor. He got his doctorate in Divinity and Theology, but he is actually super focused on peace and conflict resolution. So he even flies back to his homeland of Cote d'Ivoire, Ivory Coast twice a year to give lectures and workshops on personal development, but also how to have more conflict resolution which is obviously super important. And the reason I contacted him is that I knew that he grew up in a Muslim country. And he grew up Muslim. He grew up with a super Muslim background. And so he's steeped in the tradition of Islam. And I wanted to pick his brain and figure out what is this Quran says about sexuality and about romance. And in this conversation, we even get into polygamy because that's part of the Muslim faith. And I learned a lot. It's very humbling because I didn't know that much. And I'm guessing you don't know that much either. And even if you do, this would be a very insightful conversation because Dr. Kone is a super-smart guy. And he always has a warm spirit and a lot of great information to parlay. So please help me welcome, Dr. Drissa Kone.
Andrew Love
Okay, welcome back, everybody. So this guy, he's kind of my friend but he's also kind of a brother. And the main reason is, the Mongolian connection keeps us. We have common desires and fears based on our experience with the nation of Mongolia. So I know him as Kone, but he's Dr. Drissa Kone. And he's a very tall, very huggable man. If you ever meet him, he's very good at hugging. The reason, like I mentioned in the intro, bringing him here is because I know that he's a scholar and he grew up Muslim. But he also has a strong desire. I noticed about you very clearly, Kone, that you have a strong desire for people to understand the Quran. Since I've known you, you've been proud of your heritage, where you came from, your upbringing. And so, yes, first of all, welcome. Thank you for coming.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Thank you for having me.
Andrew Love
Thank you so much. So before this, I cut ourselves short because I was asking you very pertinent questions that I'm sure people need to know which is about the Quran. So we want to get into what the Quran teaches about sexuality, intimacy, marriage, and all these stuff. But as a foundational question, who is the Quran written by? Because I'm guessing Mohammed didn't write it himself. He wasn't probably the autobiography.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, like most enlightened people in history, they were too busy with other things than writing.
Andrew Love
That's hilarious. I was talking to this one guy who was saying that he knew True Father really well. And he said True Father's only real job as he spoke a lot and he fished a lot. And that's all he does, fishing and talking.
Dr. Drissa Kone
They're too busy with other things so that's why we have to be very careful of being too absolute about the interpretation of Scripture because it's contextual, historical conceptualizing is three things that will say in a particular time for a particular matter. And then when you take that out of context, and then you want to apply it in a new context, you have to be very careful. Anyway, Muhammed peace be upon him did not write any text. He received the revelation of the Quran through Gabriel, Angel Gabriel. And he will just recite, okay.
Andrew Love
Gabriel, which angel was he? Don't they have different themes, right? Gabriel is the angel of what?
Dr. Drissa Kone
He was a messenger.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. When Gabriel came up to him, he said, recite. Some other interpretation will say read. But that's how he started reciting or if you want to sing in the poetry. Quran is written like poetry. It's not story-based. It's more, of course, they're part of a story. But the most part of the Quran is like poetry. But in Muhammed time, there were scribes. So when he recites, there were people who'll write what he was talking about.
Andrew Love
Just a messenger.
Andrew Love
So he'll have like a gathering, and he would just be giving a lecture?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, he will talk about it and then people will just write down whatever is coming. But after Muhammed passed, after he died, I think the third cleave was a man. It felt like there were so much written stuff that has some contradictions. So he gathered all these, and then canonize it. And whatever was not considered by the college that time as properly okay was burned.
Andrew Love
So they're like Constantine. Very similar to the Bible were they selected what made it into the final draft?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes.
Andrew Love
So before that, it was just a series of different talks that were put together. And then they were writing a narrative. And that narrative was telling a story, and the parts that they didn't like or didn't fit, they burn?
Dr. Drissa Kone
It was burned, yes. And the reason for that was to avoid all kinds of, I would say, maybe all kinds of contradictions and conflict around issues. So I think it was helpful to Islam because the textbook became the only textbook that people can trust. But for most conservatives, not considering terms of politics, Muslims will say the Quran is the written word of God. So there's nothing, everything that it says, word to word, is God.
Andrew Love
Same thing with the Bible. Same thing.
Dr. Drissa Kone
That's the world of religion. Unification is, you know, some people have that tendency as well. And yes, we have to understand all people in their own development.
Andrew Love
Well, so if the Quran is telling a story and you were to be describing the Quran, not to be disrespectful, but you're describing it like a book. And in the bookstore, there are different sections. There's romance, there's a thriller, there are all sorts of different themes. What do you think the theme of the Quran really is?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Good question. I will probably say poetry and spirituality. Its section is poetry and spirituality.
Andrew Love
Is it really uplifting? Is it like, how to live life kind of thing instructions?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Oh no. There's another book that is called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is more about the stories, what Muhammed said, and the law. Because Islam actually set everything up in terms of how to live in a society in terms of the law of society. So that's what's called Sharia, it means law. So anything that's going on is been settled, the resolve's already in the Sunnah. The Quran doesn't have all these. There are some stories into it. You will see a lot of those story in the Old Testament that was repeated there. But it's all in a narrative, in a way that is being like somebody is just repeating words for poetry. It's very good for recitation like reciting something. That's what most Muslims do as well.
Andrew Love
Oh yes because I've heard a lot. We hear it, I guess, in different areas. When we lived in Indonesia, there were a lot of Muslim temples. There's a time of day when they were allowed to blast this poetry being sung by somebody. And it seems like they're repeating similar, I don't speak the language of whatever Sanskrit is, but you could hear certain things being repeated. But the thing that I noticed is they didn't really prescribe notes or melodies so much. It's more like the words and however the person is saying, but it didn't seem like it was, you know. The songs typically have notes and lyrics. It's more lyrics, and the notes are optional, I guess. Is that true?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, it's true because the Quran has 114 chapters. And you will see that every chapter will repeat certain things again and again. It gets repeated over and over again.
Andrew Love
Like a mantra?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. The beginning of the chapter, of course. And there are more than 6000 verses. It's kind of a complex book to read, but it's great. It's good to read because it helps you have an understanding of what that world is all about.
Andrew Love
Got it, yes. So my understanding of what you're saying is that the Quran is really just stories through Psalms, through lyrics. And then there's a separate book which helps you live life. Now, is that separate book is what you called the Sunnah?
Dr. Drissa Kone
The Sunnah, yes. Sunnah means the sayings and things in the life of Prophet Muhammed.
Andrew Love
Yes, okay. But is it taken as seriously? Because the Quran is like a holy text. But it sounds like the Sunnah is more like an academic distillation of the holy text. Is it taken as seriously like you can point to this if you're Muslim and say, but it says in this, and everybody has to agree with it?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. Because all Muslim, all issues in Muslim life are resolved through how Mohammed lived his life. Because whenever an issue comes out, they will say, okay, how Mohammed did it? What did Mohammed say about it? Or if nothing was said about it, they will look at any early disciples what they say that Muhammed's said. So it's a very important book as well.
Andrew Love
Yes, I got it.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Do you have faith practice? I know you have practice.
Andrew Love
Yes, it seems like the Catholic Church has something similar where there's like, they're based on the Bible. But they also have their own separate book for Catholics for more daily practice kind of stuff. Now, I guess, this frames the conversation in the Quran, in the kind of poetry, and in these lyrics, does it ever talk about sexuality?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, there are a few parts in the Quran that talk about sexuality. But mostly about marriage. So marriage is mentioned several times in the Quran.
Andrew Love
In what content? Always in a similar context like don't do this unless you're married? Or is it like, does it talk about marriage in a beautifully poetic way?
Dr. Drissa Kone
First of all, you have to know that marriage is mandatory in Islam. If you're not married, this is a big problem. So it's clearly stated in the Quran that everybody has to get married. When you get married, it doesn't deter you to actually having an experience with God.
Andrew Love
Is it a part of the life cycle of knowing God? Like you cannot know God unless you are married, because that's what God meets you? Or is it just more prescriptive as just a general life thing and God's just the part of your life?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Let's just say that celibacy is forbidden.
Andrew Love
Forever? So even the highest teachers, the highest Imams get married?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. All monastic kind of life is forbidden. You got to get married.
Andrew Love
Why? Because of the making children, or because of protection from stuff?
Dr. Drissa Kone
The reason is pretty simple. Because in Islam, social justice is a big thing. Islam considers an immoral issue in society as something that will disturb the order of society. Marriage help create order in society. That's why you will see any issue related to conflict and moral issues are really things that Muslims will consider as haram, like evil. So when people get married, it's clear. Their chances that they don't do things that will create some disorder in society are higher. So I think that's where the view is coming from.
Andrew Love
So it's really like a practical, social, environmental reason. Stay married because it keeps a stable society, which is statistically overwhelmingly the case. It's absolutely true. But what about when you are married, are there any instructions as to what your role is within the marriage like to serve each other? Or does it get into the weeds of that and the instruction?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Islam, in terms of marriage, it's very traditional. Gender role is quite defined differently. Women tend to be doing specific roles and men do other specific roles. That's how he said in most traditional societies, I think Islam picked up from there. Women are more concerned with the house, the children, to kings and things like that. And men are more concerned with the security of the family, providing, protecting, going out there, and making sure everything is okay. So it's purely, the gender roles are quite different and separate.
Andrew Love
How does that mix with modern society? Because you go to a place like Malaysia.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, it's a big challenge. It's a big challenge, but as I said earlier, you have Muslims who are very open-minded to the world that they're living in, in a gap. So you will see women, Muslims, who are doctors and lawyers. And they're professionals. So there is a way to adapt. Those who are more orthodoxy, oriented they will just fight that in a certain way. And they will try to implement the traditional way in their own family and promote it. Because they also believe that opening that world will have an impact in the society, will have negative implications for society.
Andrew Love
But somebody, like a young lady, because, again, Islam has been planted all over the world. And it's expressed very differently from one country to the next. So you go to somewhere like Malaysia, we were in Malaysia for a bit. And it's a predominantly Muslim country. And it's completely different than a Middle Eastern or African Muslim expression. So you see a lot of modern young Muslim women who are in the workforce, and could they point to the Quran and say, it's okay? Or are they more interpreting like, has it already been defined and you're just now loosely Muslim or considered loosely Muslim if you don't obey by certain rules?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, in the early development of Islam, there were two tendencies. Those you call orthodoxy, orthopraxy, and modern Islam. So you see scholars who actually defend one way or the other. There are many scholars who believe that Islam should be adapted to the culture where the culture of the people where it was promoted. Some said that it should come with the original culture of Prophet Muhammed, which is Arabic. And a lot of Muslim scholars refuted that and say, it's okay to be Muslim and not have a beer and not dressed up like Arabs and still practice the five pillars of Islam, and that's okay. And adapt your culture to Islam if only things that actually challenge directly recall should be rejected. But besides that, anything else can be adapted.
Andrew Love
I see. What are these five pillars?
Dr. Drissa Kone
For the five pillars, you have to believe that there is only one God, not many, not two, not three. Only one.
Andrew Love
Sorry, you Greeks out there.
Dr. Drissa Kone
And, of course, Muhammed is his prophet.
Andrew Love
Prophet, meaning? Because I know the discrepancy between Jesus being a Messiah and a prophet. But as a job description, what's the difference between a prophet and the Messiah?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Well, in Islam, the term Messiah is kind of a special mission. When you are a Messiah, you're given a special title. You've been anointed in a special way. But prophets and messengers, ever since Adam, Adam, and others like Noah, Moses to Jesus. But it doesn't make you different than other prophets. It doesn't make you superior or inferior to other prophets, an old prophet of God.
Andrew Love
So Mohammed, in terms of the Quran, is just another prophet, in a string of prophets.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, it's the last prophet.
Andrew Love
Oh, wow. He's the last prophet.
Dr. Drissa Kone
In the line of all the other prophets who came. And some prophets are given special mission in their time in the place of where they're born. And some, given different, is not normal prophet's job. God will give you a special, let's say, keep teaching them what was asked of you to teach no other prophets like repeating the same thing. There's no God by God. He's the only God that we need to surrender to, which is the meaning of Islam.
Andrew Love
Yes. There's no need for a prophet saying old stuff. You still need not kill anybody. Thanks, buddy.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. You have one God, of course, five times prayer a day. The cap which is given to the poor in Islam. There's nodatata 10% is given to the poor. And you have to go to make our pilgrimage and you have to observe Ramadan, which is fasting 30 days every year.
Andrew Love
Yes, that's a doozy. The tough one. Can you have water during the day in Ramadan?
Dr. Drissa Kone
No, no, you can't. It's sunrise and sunset. You have to eat before sunrise, and if you eat, let's say, 8 pm and you feel like, okay, before sunrise, you can eat something like the next day. Before the sun comes out, you have to eat something. But when the sun rises to the to the sunset, you can't eat. You can't put anything in your mouth.
Andrew Love
Yes, it sounds like Mohammed was the first person advocating for intermittent fasting.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, that's interesting.
Andrew Love
So okay, thank you for that. That's important. So long as those are the staples, non-negotiable five pillars, don't touch them. But the other stuff is somewhat negotiable depending on if you fit into the orthodox or, what was the other name?
Dr. Drissa Kone
The orthopraxy. It's more about...
Andrew Love
Like approximate faith.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, you can just open a little bit of things.
Andrew Love
Got it. Yes, it's really interesting. It says more about humans than about religion because there are always people who are more inclined to stick to the rules. And other people who like to negotiate and to push things forward. And both are important. You need a skeleton, and you need muscle in order to be the other person.
Dr. Drissa Kone
The only problem is when you become too extreme in one way or the other.
Andrew Love
It's the same with anything, yes.
Dr. Drissa Kone
That's the only problem, yes. That good tension is good to balance both.
Andrew Love
Yes. Yes, I like that. Now, I would love to clear this up. Because in the Mormon faith or the Latter-day Saints, I realized you're not supposed to call them Mormons. That's actually used to be an insult. It's like the word Mooney. You're supposed to say LDS, maybe. The mainline is like, one man, one woman, have a bunch of kids. A lot of kids, actually. But then there are these offshoots that started to practice polygamy. But that's not condoned in the mainline faith. So a lot of people associate, oh, Mormons can have as many wives. But it's not really true of the majority of the LDS faith. But I know that in Islam too, there's polygamy, There's one man, multiple women. And so, is that a cultural adaptation of the faith? Or is it a part of the faith itself? Because fidelity is really important, obviously. But the idea of polygamy is like a very loose interpretation of fidelity. The harem model, it's like the Genghis Khan. Again, he had endless wives or mistresses, or whatever. But what is the teaching there?
Dr. Drissa Kone
So first of all, we have to understand that Mohammed himself was polygamous. So he had more than one wife. Thus, first of all, in this first life, he married Khadijah. His first wife, he was single to her until she died. And then when she died, he remarried. When he remarried, he married more than one. So those are two parts of Mohammed's life. So that's one thing. And polygamy is permissible in the Quran. He said that it's okay for you to take more than one wife, but you have to love and treat them equally.
Andrew Love
That's a tough job.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. So it's a tough job because it's hard to really love and treat people equally. It's not easy in that sense. But I think the reason why this became okay in Islam is because it was practiced before Islam.
Andrew Love
Yes, so it was culturally acceptable during the time of Mohammed. And so it got adapted into his teachings.
Dr. Drissa Kone
But even the Quran says it's better to take one.
Andrew Love
I see.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, it's better to take one. But if you feel the need to take more than one for whatever reason, because reality is we live in a different society with different challenges in different times. So women have a difficult citizens in many traditional societies. Socially disadvantaged, that's another reality. So that plays a major role in how women have to adapt to accept this kind of situation. So my sense is, most Muslims will be okay with it. But as time goes by with modern society, with challenges of life and women autonomy, they will probably make their own choices.
Andrew Love
It seems a little bit like, it depends on which culture you grew up in. Because like here in America, it's just straight-up illegal to have multiple wives. I don't know about other countries, but it's culturally less acceptable in some countries and cultures. And it's more acceptable in others. So I guess that's a consideration too, because how something is expressed changes by the culture. I know Christianity, like Christmas, and all that came from just this. Society's already doing this, so how do we fit this into what they're already doing? So I get that.
Dr. Drissa Kone
This is up to four. You can't go beyond four.
Andrew Love
You can't go beyond four wives? Okay.
Dr. Drissa Kone
It's limited to four. But I think the social-economic structure in where you are growing up can also challenge you to just stay with one and get maybe a few kids. Because more wife means also more children, and more challenging in terms of economic. So liberalism is a big challenge for people who want to have more wives and more children. And I think that, in the past, in traditional society, having more children was a sign of economic power. Because they will help you have a bigger farm and have more resources. But it's no longer the same in the situation today economically. Most people go to school. And so I think he has something to do with the time and the culture, and things will naturally evolve. That's my understanding of it.
Andrew Love
Yes. Got it. Got it. Got it. But so the teachings are permissible. You're allowed to have one wife per season of the year, so the four. Okay, and then within that, so we covered the Quran saying that. And you were mentioning that there's a lot of mention of marriage, a little bit about sex. What about in the Sunnah, and the laws and the rules and the regulations? What does it say about sexuality? There's obviously probably some stuff not to do. But is there any stuff that encourages couples to take care of each other, to love each other? Is there anything like that?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Definitely, yes. Definitely. It's clearly said, actually set up every detail in terms of sexual relationship and anything that is going on in the house. For example, if the man needs to have sex, the woman has to actually understand that. Not to say no because of whatever happened during the day. Just to let go, and because that sexual time will create more intimacy and connection. It's encouraged to have sex as a married couple legally because that's legal. That's part of the norm. But outside of that is completely not acceptable. Even for a man to have, it's not just for the woman. But a man who has another sexual outside of marriage is not permissible. Before you have sex with another, normally you have to marry that person first. And you have to have the permission of the first wife.
Andrew Love
Oh, that's cool. I like that. That makes sense. So is there any discussion of sex being of God? Or is it like settling the urges so that you can get back to appreciating God? Is there any kind of inference that God wants to be a part of sexuality, and it's like a holy act? Or is it just a human act that's necessary within this relationship? And it doesn't really discuss how God and sex mix?
Dr. Drissa Kone
It's mostly about purity. It is pure, it is holy, in terms of, you know, God in Islam is very complex. It's like God doesn't get into human things because God is not a human being. There's a term in theology that says underperform isn't. That God is not a human being, and a human being is not God. The way God is seen is not really involved with human beings. It's more about, we have to surrender to God for the rules and regulation that was set for marriages considered as a social contract. It's not a very holy sacrament in Islam. It's a human thing. But it has to remain pure and holy in the sense that he helps society be much more well structured and in order.
Andrew Love
Yes, it sounds really practical. Not, I don't know, overly airy-fairy or romantic or anything. It's just really practical. Just let your guy have sex so it doesn't go crazy. Keep it all within the relationship. Oh, what about the act of having children? Is that seen as being just a natural extension of sexuality or is it part of your duty as a Muslim to produce children? Or like, how do kids fit into the mix?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, it's part of a normal marriage. Sexual is about having kids as well. So that's why things like taking some medicine or whatever to not have kids is completely forbidden. If Charlie's coming, he's coming. It's God's will. And that's said.
Andrew Love
So no contraception?
Dr. Drissa Kone
No contraception. Yes, exactly. How many, keeps coming, it's okay.
Andrew Love
In a fully Muslim country, let's say a Middle Eastern country where it's like 100% buy-in, it's like, we are a Muslim country. Would they probably then ban condoms?
Dr. Drissa Kone
I think, yes, they will. They will probably ban it by law.
Andrew Love
Oh, is that from the Quran? Because do they have contraception back in Muhammed days?
Dr. Drissa Kone
They do not. But it's just an interpretation of various scholars. I mean, as time goes by, the scholar will stand and say, well, if you're doing this, it's going against God's who naturally made this to happen.
Andrew Love
Even the orthopraxy people, would they make some leeway there?
Dr. Drissa Kone
I'm sure some of them will be more open to contraception. But it's not going to be official. It's like eating pork and drinking, it's completely forbidden. It's considered haram in Islam. But some Muslims do. But they don't stand and go and say, yes, we have to justify it through the crowd.
Andrew Love
Just do it in hiding?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, just do it. Well, that's my choice, and I take responsibility for it.
Andrew Love
I see. So having kids and the act of sex, they're one and the same. They should never be separated.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, they should never be separated. Because one dimension of sexuality, of course, is intimacy and connection. But the other part of sexuality is having children.
Andrew Love
Yes. Well, actually, in my conversation with Daleep, he was talking about something similar with the Hindu faith where they have ideas that you should only have sex once a month. That's what one thing that he said. But if you do have sex, you should always be okay with the idea of having kids. It should just be natural. Yes, so that makes sense. It's very practical.
Dr. Drissa Kone
That sense, it's similar. So that's why abortion is not acceptable. But it might happen that the Quran, the Sunnah did say that a woman who by getting married and for some reason, they can't have kids. And the man, if that comes out and it's the woman's issue, the man free to ask her permission to get another wife for having kids.
Andrew Love
Oh, wow. That'll be a tough conversation.
Dr. Drissa Kone
And that's pretty tough. And if the woman doesn't want that, then she has the freedom to divorce.
Andrew Love
Oh, I was gonna say, yes. Well, also, what if the man can't produce because a lot of times is the male sperms problem. So can she get divorced in that situation?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, she can get divorced. Or she accepts the situation for what it is.
Andrew Love
Can't you just adopt? I mean, is that okay?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, you can adopt. It's okay to adopt. It's not a common practice, but it is okay.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Permissible, yes. And a lot of the time, it's much harder for women because the process for divorce is pretty hard for women. They have to go through a lot of ways. The mom, and then somebody has to go through the Quran or the Hadith to make sure that what is being decided is aligned with love.
Andrew Love
Permissible.
Andrew Love
Wow. It's very judicial, but religious the judicial.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Exactly.
Andrew Love
Well, I've got to say, I saw an amazing video about pornography and its ill effects produced by a Muslim organization. I don't know who they were. But it was really well done, high budget. And so the Muslim world is talking about porn now, finally, in this modern era. Is there any, obviously, the Quran had no idea that the internet was coming? But about masturbation, about self-satisfaction, is that discussed at all?
Dr. Drissa Kone
It's not clearly discussed. But it's actually being addressed by scholars, and said it's considered a sexual deviation. It's actually clearly condemned. And Islam is very strict in terms of how you live your sexual life, basically. Very, very, very strict. Basically, anything that's not in the clear line of abstinence, fidelity is called considered haram. And at that time, of course, we didn't have the internet, porn and things like that. At that time, infidelity, fornication was part of society. And if a woman or a man was caught in this kind of situation there will be flagged hundreds of times or in some incident, even further with stoning. So it was pretty intense.
Andrew Love
I knew a guy who lived in Afghanistan for a while, and it still happens in some parts of the world. Stoning still exists to this day.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. So that's how extreme people can go about this issue. And in the modern era, because Islam is not really fighting any other religion per se like against Christianity. No. The problem with the western world is the fact that God is removed from life, basically. It's like, God, go to church and we're going to do what we want to do. That's really the problem with many Muslims who look at the Western world and say, yey, you guys. This is going to destroy your society. We don't want that. If that's what you bring us, we don't want. Because in Islam, religion and state are not separate. God is not separate from human affairs.
Andrew Love
Yes. I just gave a talk. There's a workshop on Saturday in the Chicago area. I had to do it via zoom. But one slide that I always include in my talks is really that you cannot build a society based off of religious fear and shame. It won't be sustainable. But you also equally cannot create a society based off of justification, which is what the Western world has become. It's like, I can do what I want. Because neither one is sustainable, because you're either living in fear of messing up in the shame society, or you're living in fear of the repercussions of all the stuff you just did because you justify your actions. Basically, they both lead to fear. They both lead to you being disconnected from the real God, the loving God, the living God. So the middle ground is really to create a life. We call it the High Noon life because we talked about this High Noon era where you just live completely an honest, sincere, upright life where you're proud of your actions. There's no shame, but it's aligned with your virtues. Really aligned with the core of your being. So it's really intense to imagine. I was just reading an article about Brigitte Bardot who is this sex symbol in the 60s who denounced rules and regulations and said, I want to love whoever I want to love whenever for how long I want to love. And she had multiple divorces. She tried to commit suicide all the time. That's really where that leads. It's like, I can do whatever I want. Well, good luck. People have done that. But at the same time, to live in law alone, law without love, it's a heartless interaction. It's really just like living within certain parameters based off of the fear of the unknown that will always keep you stuck in place. So it's really important to see that laws are important. But to understand them and to not be afraid of breaking them, but keep them out of love. It's a complicated thing because when you hear about rules, you're like, oh, who are you to tell me? Especially in the Western world, who are you to tell me what to do? But that's very childish. Just to reject something, because your emotions don't agree with them. But also, whatever the opposite of childish is to just adhere to rigid laws because the laws are there. Neither one is sustainable.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Exactly. Yes, and it's beautifully said. I learned that I think this is really good. My understanding of Unificationism is how to bring those two extremes together so that something beautiful can come out of it, which is not fear-based but love-based. But also with some structure into it. In essence, I think that's what True Parents we're trying to tell the world. And how do you bring the West and the East together so that something beautiful can come out of it? How do you bring Christianity and Islam together so there's something beautiful can come out of it? How do you bring traditional society and modern society together so something beautiful can come out of it? I think that's what Unificationism is about. And I think we have to start thinking more deeply about how do we make that happen? How do we create that? True Parents did their best through marriages. Earlier, Mongolian and African, I look at my kids. It's something unique. Canadian, Mongolian, and something, you know, you look at it and I think that's what unification is about. And I want to invite all unification who tend to be too much on one side to probably open their mind to integrate.
Andrew Love
The scariest place to live is in that middle position because you're usually alone. It's usually unchartered territory. How can you live in a society where people choose the rules rather than have the rules enforced upon them. They choose it out of love. If you look at governments where a lot of governments are heading, they're not trusting their citizens. And that will always lead to totalitarianism, it will always lead to a revolt eventually. You see that in the parent-child dynamic. If a parent is too strict, the kid's going to freak out eventually. You have to learn how to trust. But it's so hard, especially if you don't understand the person. Especially if they're from a different culture, just to trust that they have good motivations and all that.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Erich Fromm is a psychologist. He said that when kids are growing up, they need love from their parents. But also needs some rules and regulations set into place. So that you can create that balance when they're growing up. If you too much letting the, oh, you know, I love you. Do whatever you want. They end up being completely a problem in society. They won't respect anything when they go out there. Even when the police are stopping them, they will just do whatever they want because they feel like, yes, my parents never told me unconsciously, of course, that I should respect any rules and regulations. And if you're too strict on rules and regulations as well, they grow up becoming a little bit too rigid. And they can love anybody, honestly speaking. They can even be a little bit more forgiving to those two situations. And that's a big problem in society. All the terrorist groups that we're having in society, people become too extreme into things. They come from the way that what was fostered into the way they were growing up. This is absolutely right.
Andrew Love
Well, it's about control. You're trying to control the way society is by forcing everybody rather than by trying to do it out of love. It's interesting, because the two sides that we're talking about, like the more fundamentalist orthodoxy versus the loose justification, lead back to a similar place of control. Because if you look at, let's say, a very religious place, they really try to control the actions of the people including sex. Whereas in the West, you can literally have all day every day, a sexual buffet, and nobody's allowed to judge you. And it always ends up back in control. When you lose control, then you're controlled by this thing. And in terms of sexuality, we're talking about pornography and all this, which is all about control. You're controlled by this thing. The theme of porn is always dominance and control. So it's really all about control. And the only way that you can't be controlled is to be free. And that freedom comes with trusting. It's like trust is the opposite of control. And it's a very different spirit, it's a very different energy to trust somebody and let them make their mistakes or whatever, versus trying to control their actions, which never works anyway. It's like a different spirit.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, I think it's great when somebody made a mistake, and then you help them learn from their mistakes. That responsibility is much more effective for them. Because when they're facing the same issue, their conscience will tell them, you know what, this has consequences that I don't really like myself. Maybe I shouldn't do that. That kind of law, how the scripture said, is written in your heart.
Andrew Love
Yes. That's the thing. If you look at marriage, it's so hard. I know. I know you know. That's written in my heart, the good and the bad in everything.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Especially with Mongolian, you know.
Andrew Love
They're tough. They will kick your butter up. So there's like living by the law of marriage will not produce the love that is the purpose of marriage. Because you're just staying married because of some law. But leaving your marriage and just doing whatever you want because you get bored or whatever, will not lead you to that ultimate love either. It's, again, like abiding by the rules but because of love that I choose to stay with you. Not because of some stupid law, and not because of my sexual urges that I'm going to stay with you because I know that that's what my heart wants deep down inside. And so, yes, that's all. That's the funny thing, is it's all already written, all the scriptures and everything of all of history are already written in our hearts. It's just we don't speak the same language as our heart mostly now. We speak the same language as our mouth for food, as our penis for sex or vagina for sex. We don't often speak fluent hearts. That's a very good point. Yes, thank you. So is there anything missing? We should start wrapping up. Is there anything missing from this conversation about Islam and intimacy or romance or sexuality, or marriage that I didn't ask that you'd like to talk about?
Dr. Drissa Kone
In Islam, romance is, I think this is an important thing that I need to mention. Romance is something that people are very careful about, because what happened when you marry only based on romance, and then later you realize that you don't feel it anymore, what do you do? People don't trust it very much.
Andrew Love
People as in within the Islam faith?
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes, Islam faith. The scholar kind of, be careful about romance because it's not really something you can rely on to build something solid over time. So whatever you're feeling now, it's okay if you want to feel it. If you're feeling it, fine. But if you want to get married, you have to know that this is something that now you will have to do for the rest of your life. And it will take some serious responsibility and decision making to go through it.
Andrew Love
So not that romance is necessarily a bad thing but just don't base your relationship on it.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. Don't make an absolute decision on that. Because if you do, then three years later, if you don't feel the romance, what are you going to do?
Andrew Love
Well, we know what Hollywood does. We know what politicians do.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Of course. So in Islam, you can divorce based on how you feel right now. No.
Andrew Love
And so is divorce within the faith of Islam, the Muslim faith? Is it, you have to go through Imam, you have to go through a process. What is your process?
Dr. Drissa Kone
It's not encouraged at all. But if there are issues that might lead to divorce for sure. But it's everything is done not to create because when we go divorce, it will create problems in family structure and things like that, which extends to the society. Everything is done not to get to that point.
Andrew Love
Everything meaning like intervention, like counseling from the religious leaders and stuff?
Dr. Drissa Kone
The intervention comes to support and taking time to consider things. But it did happen at a certain point when people feel like, well, it's not going to work. They're accepted. But in general, it's not really encouraged at all.
Andrew Love
Well, that's cool. We have that in our faith, this ideal year where it's like, okay, you feel this now, let's wait a year. Don't decide based on this present state that you're in. Decide in a year from now, after you've really tried to make it work. I'm sure it's way different but similar. Yes, that's really cool. I like it. Just basically, you started that with don't base your relationship off of romance and don't get divorced based off on negative feelings. So don't be a slave to your feelings, essentially.
Dr. Drissa Kone
That's right. And so that's important. I think that was very important for people to know because in the world today, everything is based on how I feel about this person. Even after 10 years of marriage, you start feeling something for another person out. And then the whole family gets difficulties because of what you felt now. And that's not acceptable. The only thing they will do, is damage control. Damage control, just marry her and give up the other one. That's a damage control thing, I think. So that you don't put the first structural family into some dislocations and stuff like that.
Andrew Love
It's absolutely insane. But we're so used to it like in the Western world. But it doesn't make any sense that you would start a relationship just based off of feelings, or end a relationship based on feelings just as two individuals. Because there are so many societal implications to that. It's just like, I don't want to go off too much, but in all previous iterations of relationships, in different tribes and cultures, you always have to go through a group of people to get to your future spouse. You have to talk to their parents. You got to have some tribal elders, something like that, to make sure that you're making a sober decision. Not just based off of physical attraction or whatever. So there's a filtration system to get into the relationship. And when if you were to break up or divorce or whatever back then, you're losing half of the tribe or whatever. So there are the major repercussions which there still are today, these repercussions, we just don't feel them. Just like when we produce garbage, we don't see where it goes. But we're making this huge heap of garbage. And the same with our decisions within the family, we might not see it directly, but it's impacting. The stats are very clear like fatherlessness or divorce, what it does. There are so many ripple effects, but we don't directly see the impact. And we don't feel it. So it feels like, oh, I can just get divorced and there are no repercussions. I'll just move on. I'll heal. But actually, there's so much more to it that used to be factored in because the impacts were, you could see them in the people that you're surrounded by. Now, it's people that you don't know.
Dr. Drissa Kone
And not just society, but the psychological challenge. Divorce kids go through incredibly difficult. There are so many doubters about this. And I think the point here is to share it more. To share and talk about reverberate for people to make sure that marriage is a serious thing. You don't just rush it.
Andrew Love
Well, you shouldn't. And something that we can impact directly is just making sure that we are connected to a tribe of people. That we're connected to, we have accountability outside of our marriage, for the quality of our marriage. Because if we're not taking care of each other, we're walking out of the house in a bad mood. We're going to treat people badly. There are always repercussions, whether we're cognizant of it or not.
Dr. Drissa Kone
And from a developmental perspective, I tell people also sometimes that challenges we're facing in marriage is a good thing. It helps them grow. We only see the negative part of it because we are going through uncomfortable feelings, anger, frustrations, and stuff like that. But it's an opportunity for growth as well. You can transform that, overcome it, you become a better person. So yes, that's an important thing for people to know. So that things happen, and then you don't just run away and hide somewhere.
Andrew Love
It's very true. It's the uncomfortable feelings that you're talking about is just the edge, the limitations of your heart that you're just rubbing up against how limited you are. And by escaping, it doesn't fix the feeling. It just means that you're delaying the inevitable. You're going to get to that point again until you expand beyond that.
Dr. Drissa Kone
I think that's what needs to be taught a little bit more to even mostly our second generation, or younger people who are getting into a blessing. They have to know that just doing the ceremony is a good thing. But is the blessing itself is a process. And through that process, you're going to grow and grow and can be very painful. So people have to be aware of this. So marriage is about growth. It's not just like, oh, I'm happy. We are so happy together. Everything is like the first day of marriage where we're all dancing. Yes, good. But we enter marriage itself as a process, blessing as a process. You have to understand that growth is part of it. And that growth is painful sometimes.
Andrew Love
Absolutely. We sometimes get reports from young people who have been together with us, working on their sexual integrity with us for a long time that just goes to the blessing. And then right after us, they're texting us, hey, I'm having sex six times a day. Something like this and I'm like, okay, great. But just understand, play the long game. Don't go crazy now. Just make sure that you're respecting each other now and you're not getting too excited. Something sustainable. I'm not trying to rain on their parade, but just make sure that you don't expect this forever without a day off. You just calm down. You're young, you're in love, great. This isn't like a season. You just know that there are other seasons too and that it's all beautiful,
Dr. Drissa Kone
Kids come and..
Andrew Love
Plates get smashed.
Dr. Drissa Kone
And that journey, there's so much involved in that journey. So I think it's beautiful to really emphasize people who are getting into a blessing. So that they don't just get the mindset of, well, because I take all the wine or whatever and things like that I got blessed by True Parents. True Parents lay their hand so we're good. No, you get to grow, man.
Andrew Love
Yes, that's very important to understand. I appreciate it. And thank you. This is great. I learned a lot myself. I'm sure everybody else did. And it's very insightful because when you meet somebody, you have a lot of assumptions. And if your assumption, it's inevitable. It's human nature to assume certain things. But the more information that you have embedded in that assumption, the healthier it is. So I think understanding the Muslim faith is really, really important because that's something like over a billion people, there's over a billion Muslims.
Dr. Drissa Kone
Yes. Muslim is the fastest-growing religion in the 21st century.
Andrew Love
And probably the people that are going to take over the world. Because nobody else is having babies other than Muslims. At this point, the LDS church and Muslims are going to take over the world. And to the not too distant future, I don't know if you've been reading about birth rates, but they're plummeting in pretty much every country except for Muslim countries. They're not sustainable. And only African and Middle Eastern Muslim countries, are they of sustainability.
Dr. Drissa Kone
And children growing up the practice of faith is very important. Because of what is happening in Islam, you don't just tell children, you know, just telling their kids to pray. You're praying. And they see you doing it. They will naturally follow you in doing it.
Andrew Love
I like it so much, man. Thank you. Thank you for catching us up loosely, and to inform us. And I'd like to have you on again to talk about other stuff because you have a wealth of knowledge. You're a well-studied man. So it's good to pick the brain of somebody who knows something.
Dr. Drissa Kone
So it was a pleasure. Sure.
Andrew Love
I hope you found that episode enjoyable. And before we go, I wanted to challenge you to take your life on. To take your life to the next level. And if you're struggling in any way with pornography, with masturbation, with issues of sexuality that just are not helping you at all. If you want to reclaim your life, reclaim your eyes and ears, your time, your energy, then take our free 15-Day Challenge. If you go to highnoon.org, you can find our 15-Day Challenge right there on the front page. Take it. It's absolutely free. No strings attached. We've designed it to help you gain some level of momentum in your journey of sexual integrity so that you can take the next step, whatever that may be. It could be to go to our deeper ascend program, which is a 90-day program we have. It could be to reach out to that accountability partner. It could be to just take whatever steps you need to take in your journey to build the life of heavenly sexuality that you deserve. So go to highnoon.org, right now. If you want to break up with porn and start to get engaged with the life of your dreams, and eventually marry it. Doesn't it sound nice? So go to highnoon.org to find all of those resources and more. It's been a slice.